Episode #15: Postpartum Mental Health with Jessica Barnes
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Spotify Google Podcasts
In this episode, Dayna and Rhonda welcome mental health professional Jessica Barnes to talk about postpartum mental health.
Jessica Barnes is a passionate Maternal Mental Health Therapist and proud momma of two, soon to be three kiddos.
A self-identified "birth nut" Jess is incredibly passionate about supporting moms (and dads!) with anything that could present challenges along our parenting path; fertility challenges, pregnancy loss, anxiety and depression, relationship challenges, birth trauma, and adjusting to life as a new parent in a society that doesn't always support us.
Strengthening self-compassion and self-care, while challenging the systems that often lead to our burnout are the cornerstones of her work.
This was a very informative and validating chat for Dayna and I. In this episode we talk about…
🔹What led Jessica to become a mental health professional with a focus on the perinatal population
🔹Common concerns that clients typically seek advice for in the postpartum period
🔹How equal and opposite emotions are common and valid in the postpartum period
🔹What is the difference between baby blues and postpartum depression/ anxiety?
🔹How the global pandemic has impacted her clients’ mental health
🔹Common presentations of postpartum anxiety
🔹Strategies to implement right away to mitigate postpartum depression and anxiety
🔹The importance of asking for help in the postpartum period
🔹Strategies to implement during pregnancy to prepare for a more supported postpartum period
…Plus so much more!
We’re excited for you to listen to this episode and hope you find some of Jessica’s advice helpful. Let us know in the comments!
Find Jessica here:
Website
Psychology Today
-
Episode 15 - Postpartum Mental Health with Jessica Barnes
We're excited to have you join us for this episode of Pelvic Health and Fitness. I'm Dayna Morellato, Mom, Orthopedic and Pelvic Health Physiotherapist. And I'm Rhonda Chamberlain, Mom, Orthopedic Physiotherapist and Pre Postnatal Fitness Coach. On this show, we have open and honest conversations about all phases of motherhood, including fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, menopause, and everything in between.
We also provide helpful education and information on fitness, the pelvic floor, and many aspects of women's health, including physical, mental, and emotional wellness. Please remember as you listen to this podcast that this is not meant to treat or diagnose any medical conditions. Please contact your medical provider if you have specific questions or concerns.
Thanks so much for joining us. Grab a cup of coffee. Or wine. And enjoy!
Hi, welcome to episode 15 of the Public Health and Fitness Podcast. Today we are joined by Mental Health professional Jessica Barnes, and we're going to be chatting about. postpartum mental health. Ooh. So before we chat with Jess, I'm just going to do a little introduction about her.
So Jess is a passionate maternal mental health therapist and proud mama of two, soon to be three kiddos. She is a self identified birth nut. And she's incredibly passionate about supporting moms and dads with anything that could present challenges along their parenting path, including fertility challenges, pregnancy loss, anxiety and depression, relationship challenges, birth trauma, and adjusting to life as a new parent in a society that doesn't always support us.
Strengthening self compassion and self care while challenging the systems that often lead to our burnout are the cornerstones of her work. I love all of that, Jess. That's so good. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So happy to have you. Jess, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into this type of work initially?
Sure. Uh, it was kind of a combination of two, like, serendipitous things that happened at once, which was that, um, I went off on maternity leave for my, my first love, which was child welfare. So I worked in child welfare as a social worker for six years, um, before I had my son. And I went on maternity leave and through, you know, child welfare.
Took all of me. I worked, you know, it was a very demanding job. Um, and I knew pretty quick that I kind of couldn't be the mom that I wanted to be and the child welfare worker I wanted to be. And so I was kind of feeling like it was time for a career switch. Um, and I've always wanted to do private practice.
And so I have a good girlfriend that was kind of my coach in supporting me with, you know, my own Confidence challenges of like, Oh, can I do this? Like, am I really capable of being a therapist? And her questions were kind of like, what are you passionate about? And what do you feel confident in supporting people with?
Um, and having like finishing up my first year postpartum, I was like, Oh, postpartum like birth and postpartum stuff. Um, and you know, for me, I had You know, I had a great home birth with my first, um, my husband was a super support. I had this huge network of both professionals and like super supportive family.
Um, I didn't have a diagnosis of like postpartum anxiety or depression. And even with all that, I still found the transition to parenting. One of the hardest things ever. So that like In combination with just having become like fascinated with birth and postpartum, um, having gone through it at myself that just kind of led me down to choosing, you know, to start my private practice and specialize in maternal mental health.
And from there, like I did my postpartum doula training while I was on my mat leave. Um, and then I just started taking all these like mental health trainings that specialized in maternal mental health. So, you know, postpartum and perinatal anxiety, depression, birth trauma. Pregnancy and infant loss and, you know, it just kind of grew from there and it's been three years now.
So, oh, so good. Yes. That transition to motherhood. I think both Dane and I can relate, you know, I say, Oh my goodness. I say this to new moms all the time. You can read all the books, you can hear all the stories, but truly until you live in it.
So when a client comes to see you in the postpartum phase, Jess, what are some of the common reasons they're initially coming to that appointment? Sure. So some of the main kind of topic areas are, you know, postpartum anxiety and depression, obviously. Birth trauma is a more common one that I'm getting. Um, fertility struggles is a common one that kind of comes across my doorstep.
And then the other kind of chunk I would characterize is just like, they come with like feelings. So feeling really overwhelmed. Um, feeling sad and just unhappy and that they shouldn't be feeling this way, or they expected to feel differently, um, in the early weeks and months of postpartum, um, and wanting, like wanting to not feel that overwhelm and that sadness and wanting to feel more kind of content and happy in their parenting role.
Um, and often there's like. A flavor of like relationship challenges. So challenges with their spouse challenges with extended family, um, you know, feeling isolated, those are kind of the common groups that. That come across my doorstep slash email. Now that we're all virtual right now. Yes. All the things, I think all of those feelings.
I know I felt basically that whole list. It really, you know, having a baby, it just turns your whole identity kind of on its head and it can feel so real. It's so overwhelming and you, I, for me, I really felt like you said, you know, I expected to feel differently. I really, it took me by surprise at how immediately overwhelmed I was.
Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I actually, I spoke about this pretty openly online with my first and it was a mixture of things. It was a mixture of not being able to breastfeed with her and it was a mixture of, she wasn't I. Yeah. Great sleeper, which I know they're, they're not typically right off the bat anyways.
Um, it was quite a struggle. And I remember specifically a friend coming to, you know, congratulate me and meet Sadie. And she just, she asked me, you know, in a very innocent way, like, aren't you just so overwhelmed with joy and like, isn't just this the best thing ever? And of course I said, yes, but in my head, I'm thinking like, This is not what I signed up for.
Like, I was feeling kind of resentful at that point. And again, I'm like, I'm very honest about that because I don't think a lot of people talk openly enough about that. That that's a very normal feeling. Would you say, Jess? A hundred percent. So many moms, myself included, have memories like that. Like, moments in the early days and weeks of postpartum where someone says something like that.
I have it in my, Like psychology today profile and it's been probably the thing that people comment about the most is like I read the slide in your profile and it spoke to me because I remember someone saying to me in like early weeks like, Oh, don't you just love being a mother and like my whole being wanted to be like, actually, no.
And then, and like, and this is the other thing that people come with me is so much guilt, right? Like along with feeling overwhelmed, sad, unhappy, like discontent comes with this huge guilt of, you know, I chose this pregnancy or I planned this pregnancy or we're so lucky. Or just like, this is motherhood, aren't I supposed, aren't I, I'm supposed to be grateful and I'm supposed to be happy and I feel so guilty for not feeling that way.
Yes, I think that's a huge light bulb moment I had, um, with my therapy journey. I've, you know, spoken openly about that too, is we can have Equal and opposite emotions at one time, right? So it's like, yes, I can be grateful and I can be so over the moon that I have this little baby and I can also feel overwhelmed and resentful and frustrated and all the things, right?
You don't have to have one or the other in terms of emotions. One of my favorite things to do with moms is a grief and gratitude list where it's like on one side, what are we grateful for? And on the other side, like, what are we grieving? And why are we so disappointed about? for that exact lesson that all of those things exist at once and they don't actually negate from each other.
Yes. And like accepting that takes a layer of the like struggle off of it once you like come to terms with that. I love that. That's so good. I'm having a moment here because you were, you said, um, almost everybody has that one sentence. That one thing that somebody said to them and mine was actually a healthcare practitioner.
Oh, that's the worst. I think the world of her. Um, but I was trying to open up a little bit at one of my first visits with my first. And she was asking me how it was going and I said, you know, I'm exhausted and she's going through a rough time and she's crying and I'm always worried about this and that.
And she said to me, are you even enjoying her? And I thought, oh my goodness, like I felt like I just. Shame. Right? What a shame inducing comment. And I internalized it. I really did. It took me a long time to kind of think through it with some, some counseling of my own of, um, I felt like I shared this much of what I was actually feeling and that brought that out.
So if I should, what is the world going to think of me? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, so powerful. I just want to hug you. Do you ever look at photos of yourself in those early days? I say this to my God. I want to hug that version of myself. Oh my goodness. Yes. Big time. Yeah. And you just see the, like, the deep shadows and like, Oh my God.
Yes. Absolutely. Agreed. Yep. Um, so what, so when it comes to the postpartum period, we often hear about the term baby blues and then we hear about postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. So what is the difference between all of those? Okay, so what differentiates those two things like baby blues versus like clinical anxiety depression is a very stark difference in like frequency duration and consistency.
So, baby blues is short lived. It's usually like small moments of your day and, and like not hours and hours on end. So for me, I had a very classic presentation of baby blues where like every day at five o'clock, something would make me cry. I'd feel crappy for 20 minutes and then I'd move on. So there was no disruption for me in.
You know, being able to sleep, being able to enjoy things that normally brought me joy. Um, you know, my ability to get out of bed in the morning, like baby blues did not impact my functioning in a negative way on an ongoing basis. Um, and everybody, like, it's very normal to have kind of like bursts of anxiety and bursts of depression and bouts of it that kind of come and go.
But when we start talking about like clinical postpartum anxiety and depression, it, it's, you know, almost every day, most of the day for weeks and months on end, and, you know, things that normally would have like Shooken us out of bad mood or out of a bad state, or, you know, if the baby's going through like a sleep regression and then it ends and then you feel better or like you get some good food and you have a good visit with someone you love and you feel better.
Those things don't make anxiety and depression better. Okay. So it's that frequency duration and consistency that really differentiates baby blues versus postpartum anxiety, depression, and actually. Baby blues often happens like right away and is gone by the six week mark. Six weeks is actually when we start to see postpartum anxiety and depression kick in.
It's usually actually like six weeks and onwards. So that's another piece to that. Do you think it's massively underdiagnosed? I don't know. Um, because it's really complicated, and I think there's a difference between and I, you know, I want to kind of give the caveat of like, I'm not a psychologist, so I'm not qualified to diagnose people with anything.
But I think there's a difference between people who like have hormonal. Postpartum anxiety, depression, where it's literally like the hormones have triggered a mental health, um, crisis versus situations in which anybody would be depressed and, and anxious and like chronic challenges that, 'cause I think we, we often view anxiety and depression as.
This bad thing that nobody should get and we don't ever want. And for me, the reality is, is anxiety and depression are kind of like the cold and flu of mental health. Like everybody at some point in their life struggles with kind of some amount of anxiety and depression. Um, and you know, when you have a new baby and your hormones are all out of whack and you're no longer sleeping and there's this huge challenge that you really can't prepare for.
And then if you throw in things like, An unsupportive partner, birth trauma, lack of family support, a colicky or difficult baby, like who wouldn't be depressed and anxious for some period of time in that and like, I don't care who, there's no amount of medication that's going to make that go away. Right, right.
Whereas if it's truly a chemical imbalance, meds can make a world of difference. So I don't know, that's a tough question to answer. I think it's a widely experienced phenomenon, like, especially in our culture where partners don't get, you know, a lot of parental leave. And Most women's story that they have come to motherhood with is I'm supposed to figure out how to do this on my own.
Yeah. I'm not supposed to need a lot of help past like six weeks, if that. Um, and that sets us up for failure. Right. And, you know, if we, if we had a different start, if we had different systems, I question whether it would be as prevalent as it is. Yeah. Do you, and what are your thoughts on, I mean, obviously a global pandemic doesn't help anybody.
We had isolation, like isolation. Yeah. Yeah. Did you, did you see a lot of changes during the global pandemic in terms of your clientele? Yeah. Like, um, just a huge ramping up of Depression and anxiety, right? Because people were isolated. People were isolated at a time when they needed it the most. And I think for people who were maybe predisposed.
to anxiety around health issues or things like that. I mean, COVID was just terrifying. Yeah. Right? Like just really terrifying and really hard to weigh risks and pros and cons of seeing immediate family and getting support in and, um, and like, and the birth trauma, like just people who couldn't, you know, for people who had babies in NICUs, you couldn't go in with your partner because they were managing people and then like just so many complicating.
Factors are not having support people available at birth and just really difficult, such a hard time. Yeah, such a hard time. And then, you know, and then there's the context of having either partners or extended family that weren't on the same page that that has been a very steady theme that I still have, which is that conflict within relationships about where people are at with COVID being a risk.
Right. I heard that a lot with my clients, for sure. We were having a lot of those conversations just, you know, obviously letting out their feelings. You come to a pelvic health therapist, you let it all out, but yeah, just I have no other way to describe it other than just many icky situations where people just didn't You know, you're trying to learn this human and your own identity and breastfeeding and lack of sleep and now we have to figure out how to navigate these big family issues and how huge that nobody has prepared anybody for none of us were prepared for that.
So definitely not. No. All right. So what. For our listeners, what are some of the common presentations of postpartum anxiety? I think you touched on some of them. You said it was over an extended period of time, kind of not bringing you joy. Any, any other things for our listeners, if they're thinking that they maybe should be seeking some help for?
Yeah. So the presentation tends to be like this combination of like physical symptoms. So some people will say like. Um, you know, it's like they can't they can't relax. Their body feels tense. Their heart is racing all the time. They're having a hard time sleeping. And the mental kind of components that come with that are like ruminating, having a hard time shutting their mind off and an increase in intrusive thoughts.
For some people, it can be like obsessive. For others, it's That need to like consume all information that exists on the internet about like whatever topic is causing them anxiety. And ironically enough, the most common ones and people don't call these anxiety, but often what I see is underneath it is it is anxiety is irritability and rage.
And so they'll say like, I'm so intolerant with my toddler. Like I just, you know, or I'm so, I get so frustrated with my baby that they won't sleep. Um, and underneath that, like high irritability is like burnout from being anxious all the time. Okay. Um, and same thing with the rage. It's just like, they're so anxious.
They're so tuned up. They're so hyper vigilant, just so many things and anxiety and depression really are exhausting. So that's the other one that will come with it is, you know, sometimes people have babes that sleep well or better, and they're still really, really exhausted. And when we look at When we kind of get under that, one of the factors can be that they're just the brain will not stop and they're just anxious all the time.
And, you know, trouble making decisions, like everything becomes. a crisis and really hard to figure out what the right answer is and just a real lack of confidence in making decisions about babe, um, or their family. I saw that one a lot with COVID, right? Like, do I take them to the doctors for their vaccines?
Like what's worse? Yeah. And, and just really hyper vigilance and hyper focused on that. Um, and then like lack of sleep, trouble eating, all that stuff kind of falls with, you know, those things. Yeah, I will say I 100 percent relate to the, uh, explanation of Googling all the things. I remember I had a very, um, you know, thorough awakening moment where I was trying to fall asleep.
Sadie had finally fallen asleep again. She was a struggle to, to get to sleep in the early phases. And it was, I think it was a period of me going in and out of her room for like over an hour trying to get her to fall asleep. And I came back to my room and I, yeah, it was just like. Googling incessantly, like how do you get your baby to sleep?
And like, what's, you know, what's wrong with my baby and schedules and just, you know, everything. And I just remember having a feeling like so strong of like, this is not normal. Like, I just remember thinking like, because I, at that moment I could feel how exhausted I was, but my brain would not shut off.
And I think it was, you know. Soon after that, I remember saying to my husband, like, I don't know if this is postpartum depression, but I like something feels not right. And so that day he, my husband's wonderful and super supportive. He called my sister and said, cause at that point, Because I was like still trying to breastfeed, you know, trying to work on the sleep training, like trying to do everything.
I felt like kind of alone again, even though he's super supportive, I felt like I had to say it because I'm the mom and like, I should know how to do these things. And so, yeah. So he called my sister and he said, you're, you're leaving, you're going out with your sister. I don't care what you do, but like, I'll figure it out.
And I was like, what? No. And he's like, no, you're going. And honestly, like that was a huge turning point for me. And actually in that outing with my sister, I, that's when I come came to the decision, like, I think I'm just done with breastfeeding. It just wasn't working and yeah, things for me turned around from there.
And so, but I could, you know, that was for sure a moment that. Had I kind of like continued down that path. I can see where it gets to like kind of a scary level. Like it just I knew it wasn't myself. Yeah, I knew something was off. Yeah, so I'm thankful for that moment. Um, but yeah, it's it's not a fun feeling so common and you know, You, you asked, you, you gave me this question for later, but like, when you talk about like strategies that people can implement right away for people who are experiencing the anxiety.
One of the first things I talk about is like, do not let anything in that causes you stress and anxiety. So I get people to do a social media call. Like if there are accounts that you like read things or see things on and they stress you out, like get rid of them. Like you can always go back. But when you're in that heightened state of anxiety, you're so, so vulnerable and just so susceptible to other triggers that you have to be really, and that includes people like that includes not having over people that aren't going to be supportive and that aren't going to say the things you need them to say, right?
Because we're anxious. We want control, right? Like a lot of us, our anxiety is provoked by the total lack of control we have over so many things with a newborn. It's just so much. Yes. And so we look for control and in the age of information, we think there's answers. Out there in the, you know, internet world as to why our baby won't sleep and what it is we've done wrong and what we can do to fix it to make that go away.
And so we look and we look and we look and we look because we think it's going to make our anxiety go away. And the irony is it actually just fuels it. So it's hard. I had a sign up on my, I like printed off. this list that was like, go to sleep, like call mom and in giant capital letters, I had stopped. F ing Googling.
For the exact same reason. Yeah. We need that with our It's crazy. Oh, we need that with our pelvic health clients too, right, Dayna? Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I had a moment too, again, honestly, there's so many, like, fireworks going off in my brain for myself personally, but also all of my clients with everything you're saying.
I, I know this is going to resonate with so many people, but, um, you I had a moment where I had never really thought too much about social media, you know, you hear that it's overwhelming, but I was probably about six weeks postpartum, scrolling incessantly while I was breastfeeding my daughter. And I remember thinking.
I just, I think I tuned in, and I had this moment where I was like, I, my heart was racing, I felt like I was sweating. Yes. And my husband walked into the room, and he asked me if I was okay, and I said, I don't think Instagram is good for me. Like, I, in that moment, just scrolling through these beautiful pictures.
Yeah. Felt like it should look like. Yes. Was a physical response for me. Yeah. Yeah. And so many people have like, have that reaction to social media, especially in those, those vulnerable early days in weeks or the news. Like I tell, I tell clients all the time, like, do not listen to or watch the news. Like if you hear something come on the radio, you turn it off.
And I've said, because, you know, people, people want to dump their trauma on people who are pregnant and like, and they tell you stories that you do not need to hear. And I tell people all the time, like, if you hear, if someone's starting to tell you something and you think that's where it's going, you stop them.
Say sorry. Like, I'm just, if this does, it doesn't have a happy ending, like, please, please don't tell me. Yeah. You have to protect yourself. I call it bubbling up. Like you have to bubble up and protect yourself during that vulnerable period because you're just so sensitive and it's so impactful. Actually, this, uh, this wasn't the question on our list, Jess.
I'm going to surprise you with a question, but, um, it just made me think back to, so my second postpartum experience with Tegan. So our, um, second kiddo is around the same age. So I was around six months postpartum when COVID hit. And so, It's interesting because now thinking back, I almost had a very similar postpartum anxiety moment when COVID hit.
I found myself, and I'm sure most of us were doing the same thing, just obsessively watching the stats and the news and following the stories. But then I'm just also now thinking, could there be like a component of like postpartum anxiety being six months postpartum? Like how, what, what's that window like where it can be sort of hormonal related?
So anytime, like an official postpartum anxiety or depression diagnosis can come anytime within the first year. Okay. And you know, we all, we talk about like, there's this window of what is like, cause anxiety is a healthy response. to a threat, right? Like, you know, if we think back to like caveman days, if a tiger came out of the woods and you weren't anxious.
Like not good. Like you need the anxiety makes your blood pump. It makes your oxygen go faster. It makes you run. It helps keep you safe. So there is a healthy and normal amount of anxiety when we're going through a world pandemic and you have a vulnerable infant or family at home. So I always talk to clients about their being this kind of like healthy.
I don't like the word normal, but like there is anxiety can be healthy. It becomes. unhealthy or kind of a maladaptive response when you're kind of what I call is over the window. And that has to do again with that, like frequency and duration. And is it impairing your ability to function in other like areas of your day?
Right. Um, so like, you know, if you can't go to sleep at night, Consistently because you're worried about COVID when you're safe at home in your house like that's that's when we start to say can we bring you back down into this window so that you can kind of keep functioning throughout your day. Does that make sense?
Totally. Yeah, yeah and thinking back to that time again I think I have become very self aware again through therapy it's been very helpful, where that night where I felt that feeling again very similar to my first postpartum experience I from that day on I said to Jay I'm like, I'm like, I'm not looking at the stats anymore.
I'm not caring about the numbers. I just can't. And yeah, I kind of turned it around from that point too. Yeah. And I definitely like, I kind of cycled in and out of that where like, I would get to this point where I could just feel my anxiety coming over that window. And it was like, okay, like, I'm not, I'm do, I'm not reading the news about this.
I'm not looking at the numbers for the next week. And I would tell my family, like, I need a COVID break. If we talk, we can't talk about this. And my husband and I would do the same thing. Like, You know, we would no longer to have that be our focus of the dinner conversation anymore because I just need I needed that bubble totally to bring myself like back down into that window.
And for people who are really struggling with kind of chronic anxiety and depression. It's really hard to bring yourself back down into that window, and you need kind of more professional long term support to like, get there consistently.
Okay, so bubbling up. I love this. Yeah. What are some other strategies that somebody could maybe implement right away if they're feeling anxious, whether that's a postpartum anxiety diagnosis or not? Yeah. Yeah. So the two S's I go to first are sleep and support. So, you know, Whether that's you sleep in the morning, like you get your partner to get up during the night, you take naps when baby sleeps, if you can.
And I always say to clients, like, if you can't sleep, cause often when people are really anxious, it's really hard to sleep. And then you're like, Oh my God, I can't sleep. And it does not sleeping fuels the anxiety even more. And it's just like horrible, vicious cycle. So I talk about like, if you can't sleep rest, if you don't have to stand up, sit.
If you don't have to sit, lie down, whatever, whatever you can do to kind of increase your rest and therefore increase your sleep. Do that. And then it's about what can you bring in for support? You know, can your partner call in sick from work tomorrow? Can your mother in law come over? Can your mom come over?
Can you hire a postpartum doula? Is that, you know, financially feasible. Um, and for a lot of women to going, I talk about the Maslow hierarchy of needs, if people know about that. And I talk about needing to go back to that base and focus on that base needs, which is like what our needs are for survival.
So sleep, Are you eating well? Like is, can you get more food? Can you get better food? Are you drinking enough? And it's amazing the number of women that will come back to me and tell me what a difference just making sure that they're like food and water intake was better and more consistent does for their mental health.
You know, like I've talked to these moms who like wouldn't eat all morning. Or like they'd have a coffee and like that was it and then wondered why they're like wired and like just feeling awful by noon. And you know, so we talk about just getting those kind of basic needs and part of that too is connection.
You know, can you have a phone call with someone? Can you get someone you love to come for a visit? Like what does that look like? Like what is meaningful connection and what is possible in the reality of your life? And then honestly, you know, So many women. All it takes is like a little bit of validation, like and some reframing of their expectations.
So the number of women that I get the story of, you know, I'm overwhelmed. I'm sad and often they've all had. Challenges like a colicky baby or a NICU baby or, um, you know, birth trauma. And they think that they're not like, that it's not supposed to be overwhelming, that they're not supposed to have feelings of like difficulty and sadness.
And as soon as I give them permission to like, it's actually normal and okay, that you feel this way a bit, just having that reframe, like, again, just turns the dial down a little bit and seems to make all the difference in the world or like, Validating that when, you know, their mother-in-law tells 'em, well, you should be grateful.
Hmm. You know, you've got this beautiful baby. Like, yeah, you had a hard birth. You were in the hospital for five days. Like, you know, you should be grateful. You're, you're fine now. And understanding why that is. So like unvalidating and shame inducing. Yeah. Like just getting, just hearing that validation often like is a huge shift for moms.
Absolutely. I, I always say to clients when I, when I meet them for the first time, particularly, but even if I saw them during pregnancy, when they come in for their six week visit and I asked them how it's going, I, regardless of basically what they're saying, like if they're saying, you know, everything's super great.
Or if I can tell they're really struggling to, to tell their story, I always say it's so hard. And the amount of Emotion sometimes is just right there because we have, we have been there. It is hard, even if you're having, you know, I think there's some guilt that clients have that even if they didn't have any birth trauma and they had air quotes here, like the perfect.
Yeah. There's this expectation that they shouldn't have anything to complain about. Right. Yes. Yeah. You know, and I think just giving people space to be like, it's still hard. It's Oh my God. So hard. So hard. Yeah. And there's no preparing for it. Like, like there really is nothing you can do or read or. Like, have someone tell you that prepares you for the instant 360 degree change that your life, you know, goes through.
And I wrote a blog really early, I've done like two in total, but I wrote one about like the five postpartum experiences I wasn't expecting. And one of them was homesickness. And I was at a Leleche League meeting, like six or nine months into my postpartum, when this woman said, I feel homesick for like the life I had before.
And I could have kissed her, like, I was just like, Oh my God, that's the word. That is it. I am homesick. Like, none of this is familiar. It's all hard. And, you know, I just, I remember. My oldest was six weeks old and I was like sitting out on my back deck, eating my breakfast. My husband had like taken him for a walk.
It must've been a weekend. And I remember just having this feeling of like, Oh, I'm done. Like
shift. I want to go back. Like I signed up for this is really hard. Yes. I always, I had a text. I had a home birth. It was beautiful. Like all was well, you know? Yeah, man, it was so hard. I always share my story too, with my clients, just for the same reason that I think more people just need to talk about how hard it is in those early phases.
And so we talk on this podcast a lot about the fitness side of things and just, you know, I'm, you know, big into the side of things. And so a lot of it for me too, was such an identity shift because I relied so heavily on having exercise for my mental health. And so. You know, I knew that it was smart to take it easy and kind of rest in those early phases, but I was really missing moving my body.
And so, you know, I would do gentle things, but just exercise was missing from my life. And that was a whole awakening moment too, to realize I can't solely rely on exercise. To ease my mental health. Right. And so for me, that's what started my whole journey of discovering other ways to manage my mental health, like therapy and journaling and meditation so that, you know, if I, you know, when I got pregnant or if I was postpartum, if I was injured, then I had other strategies other than just, you know, forcing my body to work out if it wasn't ready for that.
So dealing with that whole identity shift, to be honest, was, was very challenging. And everyone has their thing, like every mom that I talk to, whether it's exercise, whether it's like time with their partner, whether it's time with their friends, whether it's just time alone, there's always something that is just this huge pain moment.
Like, I've lost this and I see no end to getting it back, right? Like, it's really hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And I think what we don't prepare women or, well, parents in general for is that motherhood comes with grief and loss. Like that is just a part of this giant transition. There's going to be grief and loss.
And that is normal. And like, I feel like that needs to be talked about a lot more because people, myself included, you're just so blindsided by it. Um, and it's okay. Like, there's no, there shouldn't be guilt and shame about that. It just, you know, I find if we can accept those difficult feelings alongside with, you know, the good stuff, and know that there's a season to all of it.
Again, it just kind of like. It takes the edge off, but you know, the goal is never, you know, we get rid of all the anxiety, we get out of all the depression, get rid of all the disappointment and the grief. Like there is, there is no answer to that. It's like, how do we accept some of that and then like dial it down so that your suffering is less.
I love that. Yeah. I love this whole idea of just kind of preparing women for the dichotomy of the good and the hard. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And the other really key piece of that is that one does not negate the other. No. Right? Like you love your baby more than anything. And you will experience the hardest times of your life with that newborn.
And those hard times don't negate that you love your newborn and that you'd never choose differently. If you actually had to go back and choose, like you'd still choose this Exactly. And I always tell moms like That guilt just adds a layer of suffering that is not necessary. Like, just not necessary.
Yeah, so. So powerful. And it's the same thing too, like the other big piece I like to work on with moms and it's, it usually takes a few sessions but we start talking about it right away is, Like, what are the barriers to you asking for the help that you need and want? Because I hardly ever come across someone who isn't, like, who's struggling with postpartum anxiety or depression or just, like, the overwhelmed sadness, whatever.
And there isn't some kind of barrier there. Whether it's guilt, whether it's shame, whether it's, you know, you know, some people feel guilty for asking for something different than what they've been offered. So, you know, someone says, Oh, I've come over, you know, on the, in the afternoons and for that mom, she sleeps better in the morning, but she doesn't want to say that.
And so it's like, what is getting in the way of you prioritizing your needs and asking for what it is you need? And if I can shift that. It makes the biggest difference. And I tell moms this all the time. The biggest difference you can make in like suffering postpartum is your ability to ask for what you need.
I love that. I always suggest to people during, um, prenatal visits, and this kind of, I think, feeds into that a little bit, is to think of any way that they might be helped. So whether that's like, yes, dishes, food, take it off and list it in one spot. And when somebody says, how can I help you say, please refer to the list.
You don't even have to make a decision. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Awesome. I love it when I get to work with people like during their pregnancy and we can kind of do some of this work before they're like sleep deprived and hormonal and all that stuff. That actually leads into our next question. So you do work with pregnant clients as well, right?
Yes. So yes. Um, do you have clients come to you sort of, you know, with the thought, I, I would rather not deal with postpartum depression and anxiety. Are there strategies I can implement now or things I can, you know, watch for so that it doesn't get to that level? Yeah. Um, I often get clients who it's like their second time around.
So they had a hard time the first time, right? And now they're pregnant and they want to make it better the second time. So we look at how can you increase your support in that first, you know, couple months. And I'm, I'm a big proponent of the 40 days, like the first 40 days being a time where Okay. Mom is being taken care of while she is taking care of the baby.
Like, how do we get as much, that's like chills. I listened to this podcast once and she said, you know, for success and like the best health outcomes, postpartum, the focus should be 51 percent on mom and 49 percent on baby. Wow. He's like, yes, I love helping clients to like build a village. So if you're planning on breastfeeding, I really encourage them to find a lactation consultant ahead of time, connect with like the breastfeeding buddies on Facebook that are free and like.
such a wealth of information. If people are open to natural path support, I always encourage that. Um, postpartum doulas, I like try to push as much as, you know, financially possible. You know, a lot of these things come with privilege, right? Like it's a privilege to be able to afford a postpartum doula and like get some of all this stuff put into place.
Um, but again, a lot of the work is. What got in the way of asking for what you needed the first time or telling people that you needed help and really kind of unpacking some of that stuff, which is often like deeply rooted in messages we've been getting for a very long time about what it means to be a woman and a mom and a parent and.
All that stuff. Um, so yeah, those are great. Those are awesome. I think we, we cleared the list. We cleared the queue and then some, yep. Yeah, we want to be mindful of your time, Jess, but that was such a good, I could talk for hours. Yeah. And we love, we love this stuff too. Dayna and I are huge proponents of, you know, encouraging our clients if they have the means to reach out to mental health professionals, because, you know, her and I deal with sort of like the physical body, but as we know, the mental, mental and physical go together.
Right. So very often it happens where we're working on, you know, physical ailments with people, but sometimes if they're not sort of managing and working through the mental component that. can lead to those symptoms, right? So it goes well, and it's so powerful for moms to have experiences with healthcare providers like yourselves that are validating and where you take the time to like hear their stories as opposed to saying like, Oh yeah, well, it's hard for everybody.
Right next. So, you know, you guys are such a gift to moms too. To be that door that could open, you know, really the potential for healing for them, right? Like for you guys to give permission, you know, might be the difference of them seeking help or not. I love that. So Jess. If I could go talk to OBs and doctors and I would in a nanosecond.
Oh, right. Oh, I know. Um, before we let you go, how can our listeners find you? Um, so I'm on psychology today. If you just search my name, Jessica Barnes, I pop up there and, and then my website is just jessicabarnes.ca. So both of those places. Awesome. Thanks so much. That was such a good chat, Jess. Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you liked what you heard, we would love if you could share this with a friend, leave us a review, or subscribe to anywhere that you listen to your podcasts. Thanks for being here.
