Episode #65: Finding joy as a mom and business owner with Erica Webb
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In today’s episode, Rhonda talks with special guest, Erica Webb, about self-kindness as a practice, and her journey into a practice mixing movement, self-love, and counseling - as well as finding joy as a parent and business owner.
Erica Webb is a registered counsellor and mindful movement coach who supports the humans she works with to feel more at home in their body and mind. Drawing from an extensive toolbox of mind-body techniques, Erica champions her fellow humans to reclaim self care and self-kindness so they can manage aches and pains while also befriending their inner world.
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LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN EPISODE
Check out Erica’s YouTube channel
Listen to Erica’s Self Kind Podcast
PODCAST LINKS & RESOURCES
Check out Rhonda’s FREE Resource Library
Pelvic Health and Fitness Podcast
Book with Dayna (Rebirth Wellness)
SHOW NOTES:
(0:49) - An introduction to special guest: Erica Webb!
(2:05) - Erica shares with us a little bit more about herself and what got her into the field of movement and yoga
(7:30) - Erica looks back at how she previously misused self-care practices - and how that has evolved
(10:43) - What called Erica to yoga? And a bit about the early days of her business
(15:56) - On values and value misalignment in career and life
(19:14) - On feeling pressure to be perfect - and pivoting to self-love and care
(27:26) - Erica tells us a bit about her own journey with self-kindness - which includes working through guilt
(34:45) - What caused Erica to look at her movement practice differently and change things?
(38:35) - Erica’s counseling journey
(40:50) - What does Erica’s work and practice look like now in movement and counseling?
(43:21) - Some strategies Erica speaks to her clients about in the postpartum period to encourage more self-care and self-kindness
(52:13) - Erica shares a bit about her journey with finding more joy and setting boundaries as a mom and business owner
(1:02:27) - How can people find and work with Erica?
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Episode #65 - Finding joy as a mom and business owner with Erica Webb
We're excited to have you join us for this episode of Pelvic Health and Fitness. I'm Dayna Morellato, Mom, Orthopedic and Pelvic Health Physiotherapist. And I'm Rhonda Chamberlain, Mom, Orthopedic Physiotherapist and Pre Postnatal Fitness Coach. On this show, we have open and honest conversations about all phases of motherhood, including fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, menopause, and everything in between.
We also provide helpful education and information on fitness, the pelvic floor, and many aspects of women's health, including physical, mental, and emotional wellness. Please remember as you listen to this podcast that this is not meant to treat or diagnose any medical conditions. Please contact your medical provider if you have specific questions or concerns.
Thanks so much for joining us. Grab a cup of coffee. Or wine. And enjoy!
Welcome everyone to another episode of the pelvic health and fitness podcast. Today, I am honored to welcome my friend, Erica Webb. Erica Webb is a registered counselor and mindful movement coach who supports the human she works with to feel more at home in their body and mind drawing from an extensive toolbox of mind, body techniques.
Erica champions her fellow humans to reclaim self care and self kindness so they can manage aches and pains while also befriending their inner world. I love that. Thank you so much for joining me, Erica. Thank you for having me, Rhonda. It's so lovely to be chatting. Yeah. And Erica, as you can tell from her accent is from Australia and it is bright and early where she is.
So I appreciate you getting up early to have this chat today. Such a pleasure. And fun fact, I am in Australia, but I was actually born in Canada where you are. So I think I didn't know that whereabouts in Canada, I was born in Toronto, but my family were from Quebec. So, um, yeah, it's been a very long time since I've been there, but I've got a little bit of both going on.
So yeah. So you're an honorary Canadian. Exactly. I'm still a citizen, still a citizen. Oh, I love that. So yeah, I read your bio there, Erica, but I would love to, for you to share with our listeners, just a little bit more about you, uh, your life and kind of what you got into the world, got you into the world of like movement and yoga.
Yeah. All right. So I guess in terms of like, what might be relevant for your audience, um, that isn't in my bio is that I am a mom. Um, so I'm a mom of two kids and they are currently nine and 11 and they are the reason that I do the work that I do now for sure, but I was a yoga teacher. Well, before I had kids, um, well, well before, yes, a decent amount of time before I had kids.
So I ended up in the world of yoga and mindful movement because I burnt out in the corporate world really quickly, really young and was just like, I don't want to do this. This doesn't feel good. I don't feel good in this place. Um, I don't feel like I can contribute the way that I'd like to contribute to other people.
And so I left and became a yoga teacher and, uh, it seemed like a crazy idea at the time to most people. They were like, this seems like a bad idea. Um, but I just sort of followed my gut on that one and decided to become a yoga teacher. I. I had kids pretty quickly after that. So I think within a year maybe of becoming a yoga teacher, I, I had kids, um, on my first, and then I had two kids within two years and that was when I really wasn't okay.
Um, so I took, you know, took, took my time to have the kids, um, I was working as a yoga teacher, I was teaching all the way through. So I really only ever took a few weeks off at a time. I didn't teach a lot, but I was teaching kind of, um, these weekly classes that I kept going with. And I just fell in a really deep, dark hole of self loathing.
I was very much trying to be. a good mum, um, is what I called it at the time. In hindsight, I was trying to be a perfect mum, which, you know, you know, reality doesn't exist. Uh, and I, I really didn't like who I was. I really didn't like who I'd become. I was full of self loathing. Um, really struggling to take any kind of care of myself, absolutely incapable of asking for help or support.
Um, and also struggling to admit that I wasn't okay. Like I would lay kind of like these little clues of like, I'm not okay. But everything that I was doing showed the world that I was fine. So I was still very much functioning, but. Kind of crying out for help at the same time. It was this sort of, um, which I think is, is what a lot of us do actually.
And I think that it's a very dangerous place to be where we're kind of hinting that we need some help, but continuing to just maintain the status quo. And that was where I was. Um, And it was in that process of kind of clambering out of that dark space that I recognized self kindness was the missing piece, and you can replace kindness with compassion.
If you look at the definition, kindness is a piece of compassion. Um, but. I've always called it kindness, this idea of, of meeting ourselves and in this instance, myself with the kindness that I was inherently worthy of, um, I worked with a, with a, um, someone who was supporting my mental health. And what I realized of what I don't, we might talk about a little later, it was like, there was no joy in my life.
I wasn't doing anything for me. Um, there was no. Um, real, like true self care, I was going through some of the motions, but none of it really did anything because it was all from this place of, like, should, and almost like self flagellation. Like, it was sort of like, I'd do the thing and then I'd feel so bad that I'd taken an hour out from the kids that I would then beat myself up about it.
And just kind of full of that sort of self punishing kind of, um, language. So fast forward, I. I was still teaching yoga and that started to become a huge part of what I shared this. And I've never been shy about sharing my story. So people knew, I think what was going on. Um, but I started to infuse more of this idea of self kindness, self compassion, moving in ways that felt nurturing into my work.
More recently, I've become a registered counselor as well to really try to bring those pieces together to bring kind of the mental health, well being, um, wellness, fitness, even mental fitness together with. The movement piece, um, I don't teach movement in the same way that you do. So I'm not a, um, you know, strength coach, but using more, I guess, movement to understand ourselves and to be able to like read our body, I guess, and to read like, Oh, maybe I'm not, um, getting everything that I need right now.
What could I do to care for myself? So kind of learning the language of our body, I guess, and learning how to, to be. In partnership with it rather than like, I will beat you into submission. Do what I say. Yeah. Yeah. What you do. So, so needed Erica. Um, I'd love to rewind a little bit. So you came from, I'm imagining your corporate world was stressful and that's hence why you burned out.
Was there some learning about self kindness when you then, so I feel like that is a self kindness act in and of itself that you left. That stressful job to pursue something, maybe that called a little bit more towards that self kindness piece. But was there, was there still something missing in that time, like before you had your kids?
Cause there was, you know, you said once you had your kids, there was a lot of self loathing. Do you think there was, you know, some healing that was missing before you went to have your kids? If you can kind of think back to that time, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think, and I've only really kind of had this realization recently, like really recently in this.
It's all happened 10 years ago, well, not 10, I guess my youngest isn't 10 yet. So eight years ago, nine years ago, um, the recognition really was that I was using my self care practices as a way of trying to like disconnect from my humanness and kind of ignore the fact that I was the way that I was and feeling the way that I was.
So like even my movement practice. even though I, you know, engaged in yoga, although I don't think I did a lot at that time. I think I taught more than I practiced. Um, there was this sense that like, I wanted to use it as a way of shutting out. I wanted to use it as a way of shutting down almost rather than using it as a way of being like, what do I notice about myself and how can I see it in its fullness?
How can I see myself in the. The vulnerability, I guess, of my humanity and love it anyway, you know, whereas I think it was like, everything's fine if I'm doing yoga, because I'm not thinking about the world. I'm kind of disconnected. Um, I'm not thinking about myself, uh, which I think was a little bit.
Backwards for me, I think I needed to to see myself rather than, you know, blinker myself. Interestingly, with the corporate stuff, though, that just something else just popped into my mind. Um, again, something I don't think I had words for at the time, it was a values misalignment, which I think probably also.
Was part of what was going on with the yoga stuff was, you know, I, I value, and I think I've always really valued personal wellbeing, but that wasn't really showing through. Like I was, I was valuing my image as a good mom above and beyond.
Um, so that's been a big piece too, is recognizing like how that, how, how we live our values, right, which, you know, we both have a mutual, beautiful values based friend, Laura, um, and that, that really made a big difference. I didn't know that that's what I was doing, but that's definitely in hindsight what it was.
Yeah. So interesting. Interesting. And so, when you Transitioned into yoga. What about it was calling to you then? Was it, was it because it was a distraction from the stress of your world? Is that what drew you to it? Yeah, I think so. I... I was, I was reflecting on this recently, actually, and thinking, yeah, what was it that brought me to it?
And I remember saying to my teacher at the time, I just love, I could do this all day because when I'm thinking, like, I just don't think about anything else, you know, it was just, it was presence. I guess it was mindfulness. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Like, as I'm saying this, I'm like, well, is there anything really wrong with that?
I don't think there is, but I think, um, I think there is. There is a risk that. With something like yoga, it becomes another place that we can practice our perfectionism. Um, it becomes another place that we can practice people pleasing too, because, you know, there's this teacher at the front of the room that we want to make, um, think that we're, you know.
Doing the right thing. Um, and I think there was an element of that, you know, I was like, how can I perfect this practice? Um, cause I was good at doing some of the fancy, you know, like poses I could arm balance, I could headstand, I could do all those things, which none of which I do anymore because they don't interest me anymore.
Um, but there, there was this element of like, I can be. I'm really good at this. Um, and I can also shut out all the, the distressing kind of thought based. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And then did you start your business before you had your kids then I did? Yes. Yes. I have memories of pounding the pavement with my little leaflets, advertising these yoga classes.
I just hired a space, um, kind of close to home to, to teach. Um, and I used to teach a lot of kids actually, I used to do a lot of afterschool programs and things in schools, but, um, yeah, my business was running. I guess a full year before I had my first baby, yeah. Okay, so fun. So yeah, you were in the thick of all the things, you know, I, myself, the business owner can appreciate.
I started my business on Matley, which was also a stressful time. However, it was at least after it was, you know, six, when my, my youngest was six months old. Um, I can just picture how, You know, you got out of a corporate stressful world, but you're entering into business ownership and new motherhood that is stressful.
I think I looked at it almost more as a hobby at the time though. I don't know that I, I mean, it was a business in the sense that it made me some money. Um, I had, you know, all the registrations that you have to have to run a business. Um, but I wasn't teaching that much and compared to my corporate income, it was like.
I was making, you know, a few, a few pennies really. And in, in some ways, like it, it was a couple of classes a week. Um, I did a lot of, you know, just. Things for free, um, because it was, it needed to be a complete break from what I was doing, but I also realized that I just couldn't stop. Um, and to be fair, I haven't really stopped at any point in my career, but there was that sense of like, I have to be doing something otherwise, what's the point, you know?
And so, um, there was definitely an element of that. Like when I, when my, my. I mean, even at that time, I was also studying my masters. And so I was doing my masters, had this baby, was not coping, um, was still showing up to teach. And again, yeah, in hindsight, it's like, I think I made those things all very positive.
Like look at me. I can do it all. Whereas really, I was just trying to prove that like, I'm worth something, you know, I'm um, I'm worth something. So please don't forget. that I'm here, you know, there was that kind of sense, which makes me a little sad to reflect on actually, because I think, oh, it's, it's, I know, I know that's a common story amongst women, right?
Like we, there's this sense that we put aside these other parts of ourselves to be moms, which, um, You know, it's the both end, right? It's not a bad thing, but at the same time, what about everything else that we want to be and do and, and experience? So, yeah. Uh, sounds almost too, you know, maybe you had to justify leaving that corporate job by filling your life with all these other things.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And actually I interviewed Laura who you spoke about earlier on the podcast and one thing she shared that stuck with me and it kind of is coming up now, she, you know, worked, she worked part time before she had her kids and people would say to her. Oh, like, oh, you know, do you have another job on the side?
Oh, do you have kids? She's like, no, I just work part time. They're like, I like, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, like I admire that so much. Yeah. So she, you know, was, that's why she teaches value. Cause she was aligned with her values from before she had kids, which I think. Yeah. Oh, this, you know, discussion, we'll get into this, that similar to you, I think I am just learning, kind of leaning into my values as I get older now.
And there was a lot of value misalignment for myself too. And I think, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but having kids really sort of shines a light on what are your values, right? And has you, have you take a closer look on, am I living out my values? Did you find that like so once you had your kids did that start to become more obvious to you where Your values misalignments were were coming from Yeah.
I think I didn't have that language necessarily. I do have a vague memory of being taken through a values exercise with that, that person who was supporting me. Um, yeah, I think, I mean, it's a funny one being in the wellness industry, right? As a yoga teacher, I think what really struck me was the fact that I didn't feel topped up by any kind of self care practice that I didn't really like who I was.
And I was like, is this? This doesn't seem right, you know, like there was definitely that sense of, huh, am I getting this wrong? Because I, I'm not really that into, into myself, you know, like I, I just really didn't like who I had become. Um, so it, it was almost like a, yes, there was definitely values misalignment and also just like, I'm not sure what other words there are, but it was like values misalignment on the one hand, and then kind of just this sense of like having gotten it backwards on the other hand, like.
I'm looking at this from the wrong angle. I'm looking at what is self care? What do I need from all the wrong places? Um, because there was that sense of like, I have to earn the right to ports. I have to earn the right to rest. I have to earn the right to, um, take what I need because I'm not contributing financially, I'm not.
You know, at that time I was like, I'm not even doing a good job as a mom, so I'm going to have to suffer a bit more before I'm able to get what I need. And that was really the underlying, you know, premise, which to, to kind of come face to face with that is like, Oh, I wouldn't want that for anyone. You know, I wouldn't want that for anybody and to be living it out without any awareness that that was what I was doing.
Um, but to just be suffering constantly, you know, uh, That very good. That was very nice. So where do you think that came from in your life? I mean, we get so much cultural expectation put on moms. I was lucky to have examples in my life. I was kind of one of the last in my group of friends to have kids. So I felt like I felt so blessed in that, that I had.
A lot of examples. My sister was my biggest one. She had, um, a son before I had my two kiddos and she was so wonderful as, you know, telling me like, you don't have to be perfect. I struggled with breastfeeding and she was the one that was like, you can stop. And, you know, I've had all this pressure on myself to keep going, keep going, even though going into it, I told myself it's okay if I don't, but when the time actually came to make that decision, I was so hard on myself.
And yeah, I was thankful that I had examples in my life of moms that weren't perfect and were open and talking about it. So yeah, I'm just curious in your world where that pressure came from and did you have examples of people not showing up perfectly and talking about it? I don't think I did. I do now for sure.
I think I'm trying to think back. Was I, I was probably one of the earlier ones. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't a particular young mom. I was 29. I think when I had my first, um, and I had one friend who'd had kids quite like several years before me. Um, But no, I didn't really have examples of people who were willing to talk about how hard it was.
I, I don't remember that. Um, in fact, I think I had examples of the opposite of like babies who'd been very, very chill, you know, and I, part of the challenge was that my first was very unsettled. Um, I don't know if they, I don't think they use the terminology terminology. What is it now? Colicky. Yeah. Um, I don't think they use that anymore, but, but that was what he, he was when he was little.
And so he just cried all the time and, and I thought that he didn't like me. I thought that it was all because I was doing this terrible job, um, also struggled a lot with breastfeeding and didn't have anyone really telling me that it was okay to stop. Um, so no, I don't think I had. Good examples. And in fact, I have a really clear memory of my, my mom's group.
Like we kind of got put into these, um, community driven, like mom's groups. And they're beautiful people who I'm still friends with today. But I remember when I was. At my darkest time, and I'd had my second baby, I broke down in front of all of them, and I remember one of the women saying like, Oh gosh, if you're not okay, what hope is there for the rest of us?
Because I'd given such a good impression of like having it all together. And, you know, I wouldn't, I made everything my kids ate from scratch. They wore cloth nappies. I washed them, you know, every day. I. Didn't like let them out of my sight. Nobody, nobody, you know, was there to look after them, but me and.
So I think that in, in kind of reversing that, I think that I was rewarded in small ways for being who I was being. I think that it was admired. It was, um, fed back to me that I was doing it right because I was murdering myself. And I think I clung to that because it was something that I could do because I felt so lost and like I had no, no idea what I was doing.
Um, And I think, you know, growing up, I've got parents that never stop. Um, so I don't know that pausing, resting, tending to your needs was something that anyone in my life did really, um, I don't remember people doing that. I don't remember it being. like certainly not celebrated. Um, so yeah, I think it was just one of those situations where it was like, yeah, the groundwork hadn't been laid for that to be who I was.
And then, yeah, I was definitely kind of a, a, a rewarded for carrying on in that way. And it wasn't like I didn't have people who would have been willing to. Support me or pick up the slack or do anything like that. My amazing husband, um, really good people around me, but I never even gave them the chance, you know, um, it was, yeah, it, it was, it was a messy, messy time.
But anyway. Uh, and did your husband know how much you were struggling? During that time? He did. Yeah, he did. Um, he used to travel a lot. So he often wouldn't be here and I would just be on the phone in tears to him. Um, I don't think at that time we knew that there was anything practical that he could do to help me though.
Yeah. You know, I think that's the challenge too, is it's like when you've created that,
I don't even know, like role for yourself, there isn't room for anyone to kind of know how to get in. Yeah, if you don't know yourself what you need, and you don't know yourself what's missing, it's hard for someone to give advice, right? Absolutely. Because you weren't in the space to even know for yourself what you needed.
And he would ask, what do you need? And I'm like, Yeah. I mean, I don't know. And I and I was. Um, in hindsight, probably really needed to be supported by, um, someone much more quickly than I was. I'm, I'm fairly confident I was suffering from postnatal depression and anxiety. Uh, certainly was never diagnosed, but I was just like, I was just a mess.
And I think he was more frightened for me. I think he was more like just kind of chip, making sure that I was. staying somewhere not, you know, not completely, um, out of reach. And, you know, he was always willing to be like, Oh, you know, I'll, of course I'll stay with the kids and go have a massage or go hang out with your friends.
And that was the shocking part. I think was it was that I could do those things and it still didn't make a difference. You know, it was like, because I wasn't giving myself the permission or the space to be topped up by those things. It was like, you're terrible for being here. You shouldn't be here. Um, You know, just the guilt.
The guilt was just a killer. Um, yeah, the guilt. Guilt is just, just a beast. And it just sounds like you just had a really sort of ingrained dialogue, like an inner dialogue that really needed to be addressed, right? Because like you said, you can do all those things, but if the inner dialogue is, why are you doing this?
You should be with your kids. You're a terrible mother. You know, the best massage in the world is not gonna massage the third of you, right? It's like, oh, tense as soon as you walk out the door. And that was the thing. I think that was where I really realized that in hindsight, that self care is not, is not that, you know, um, and I think this feeling of, and now I see it, right?
The work that I do with people, particularly, um, sort of in more the counseling context. We're all out there thinking that we're, we're missing some sort of magic piece of the puzzle. Like we're doing it all wrong. Um, and, and in some ways. That's, I think that's the thing that, that we're kind of missing is that there's a lot of performative elements to looking after a human person.
Um, but the performative stuff without the, the deeper recognition of how we're relating to ourselves and how we're relating to our humanity is. It just, it does, it does, just doesn't have the same impact, um, because we're not changing or addressing, yeah, how we relate to ourselves, how we talk to ourselves, how we meet ourselves, how we view ourselves and questioning some of those things that perhaps lead us to, to be in kind of stuck in that loop of perfectionism, people pleasing, self loathing, all of those things that become almost just habitual, right?
And we. We don't even know we're doing them, right? So along that journey, what was finally, you know, the thing that made you turn that all around and made you, did you, you know, finally ask, accept help or what did that look like for you to begin your healing journey? I'm still not great at asking for help.
Um,
well, that's the thing I was going to say. I don't think there was a moment. I don't think there was one thing. Um, it was definitely this ability to meet myself with more kindness and compassion and to do that. moment by moment. So there was no, like, bigger heart. There was no one time where it was like, Oh, I get it.
Now I'm okay. And I still do this every day to this day. I was speaking to someone the other day and just mentioning that, like, those things still pop up for me. Those thoughts that like, I'm not a good mom, that I'm, um, you know, not trying hard enough or not doing enough or whatever, you know, not. Not pleasing enough people, not being perfect enough at anything, they still come up.
Of course they do. Um, but for me, it's this ability to meet myself and be like, Oh, I see, I see myself in my full humanity. I see that I'm really wanting to appear as this person, or I'm really wanting to, um, avoid feeling shame, or I'm really wanting to avoid X, Y, Z, and I can see that I'm suffering. And I'm going to meet myself with kindness and that and compassion and that and know that these.
Expectations that I set for myself are not the benchmark. And so it's these sort of like truly daily, sometimes many, many times a day conversations and that ability to just meet myself with softness. So the difference for me now, I guess the, what, what it feels like in terms of the difference is my internal kind of environment used to feel very hostile.
And now it's the kindest place. I still do hard things because kindness isn't. Just like doing what's easy all the time, but I don't feel like I'm in perpetual judgment of myself. I feel like I'm able to, to see all of myself. And to do it through eyes that are very kind, the same way that I would do that for a friend.
Um. And that's been the biggest change. I don't think, like I said, it wasn't just like a moment. It wasn't a sort of one practice even. I mean, even though that is kind of a practice, I guess, but that was the essence of what I was doing, even if it didn't sort of look and sound exactly like that every time.
Um, and I think in more recent years, because this, like I said, I've sort of been through this process over nearly a decade now. Um, I think in more recent years to this. Um, and we've talked about this before, but this intentional seeking of joy and, and kind of like looking at like, what do I want to do for fun?
Like, what do I want to fill my life with and dropping the embarrassment associated with that? Um, and like really giving myself full permission to feel joy and pleasure doing the things that I love. Um, even if people don't understand them, even if they feel a bit silly, even if. You know, it's brand new to me and it's kind of like, what is this?
Um, and yeah, really using my body as a barometer for like, what is it that is going on for me? How do I feel? What might I need rather than kind of viewing my body as something that I had to, um, control or manage, you know? Um, so it was kind of those pieces all together that have. Kind of gotten to me with me to where I am now, but yeah, all in all in small and consistent and continually, you know, I keep doing it moments.
I wonder too, if you think back to that time, I know for me, we talked a little bit about, um, stillness and how a lot of us who are busy type a go, go, go. We don't give ourselves time for that rest and stillness. Right. And I think that was part of my journey, just hearing you talk about some of the things that you learned when I was on mat leave.
And, you know, I, I came from a fitness background. I told myself, you know, I'm on mat leave. I'm going to work out every day because why wouldn't I have all this time? Right. Meanwhile, I'm taking care of two humans. And, um, Yeah, I dealt with some symptoms. I dealt with prolapse symptoms. And so my body was screaming at me to like, slow down because anytime I tried to work out my prolapse symptoms would worsen.
And so, yeah, in that, in those times, you know, I had to take a hard look at. That inner dialogue and how am I talking to myself? Why is it so important for me to work out every day? What am I afraid of if I don't work out every day, right? Start having these like hard questions with myself. And you know, I came to a point, I always say like I parented myself where I told myself, Rhonda.
You're only, you're only allowed to work out three days a week. The other days you have to rest. And on those rest days, I had so much guilt in the early days. I remember like laying on the couch, watching Netflix, you know, kids would be napping or be playing whatever they're doing. And just, yeah, being so mean to myself, like Rhonda, what are you doing?
You're being so lazy. You should be doing a workout right now. Like, why are you laying on the couch? Slowly, but surely that voice, I started to recognize, Hey, I'm the only one that can change this voice. Right. And so started to, you know, parent myself and talk to myself, how I would talk to a friend or to my kids.
Yeah. Rhonda, you need this rest. Your body is telling you it needs rest. Right. And so. Slowly but surely that turned around but I think a lot of it was like giving myself those stillness moments to actually like hear what was happening in my head because when we're so busy That inner dialogue, we don't even know how negative it is because we're just like on to the next thing, on to the next thing.
Like, do you I think that's part of it, right? Yeah. We are on to the next thing so that we don't have to hear it almost sometimes. Because I don't, if you don't have the tools to meet that inner dialogue that's really cruel with something that isn't just, okay, I'll do what you say. Yeah. Then it can be very uncomfortable to meet that inner dialogue because it's like.
What do I do with it? All I, like, I have to just, you know, it's that feeling of being kind of coerced or swept away with that negative dialogue and just sort of letting it direct you to where it goes. Um, so the business helps. to ignore that . Totally. Sorry, I cut you off. You were gonna ask me questions?
Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. So in your, so first of all, I wanna, I'm curious, when you were in those early phases of being a mom, um, were you working during that time too? Like, were you still teaching or did you have some time off? No, I was still teaching. Yeah. So I, I think I took about somewhere between six and eight weeks off and then I went back to teaching, but it was only one night a week.
So it wasn't much. Yeah. Yeah. And when did your yoga, how you looked at yoga, how you looked at movement, did that transformation sort of happen organically as well, just as you started to work on your healing? Yeah. Is that when you started to like look at your movement practice differently and change how you do things?
Yeah, I mean, I think I've taught movement, I've never taught movement in a, um, very traditional way, like in terms of yoga never looked very traditional in my classes, but it's become less and less so over time, uh, to the point where I don't really call myself a yoga teacher anymore because it doesn't feel like that's very accurate about what I do.
Um, I guess, yes. And I, and I think the evolution of my teaching kind of ran parallel to some of the evolution of the way that I was thinking. And then at some point they dovetailed and came together. Um, because I, I trained in another modality called sabbatic exercise when I think I started doing that. I did it over a series of about five years and I think I did it, I started it when my young, my eldest was a baby.
Cause I remember him coming to get a feed. Um, and cause cause I got a labor bottle anyway. Um, Oh dear. Um, and
that training was really pivotal in, in how I teach today. Um, so that really changed my, my approach from being kind of purely. Asana based. This is the shape. This is how you make it. You know, go from this shape to that shape to being more about what is your internal experience of movement? Like, how do you use that to inform how you move your body, how you position your body?
Um, so I think that kind of happened. Alongside, but not necessarily, I don't know that they were completely related at the time, but then that was happening as these other things were happening kind of internally. And at some point, all the work ended up overlapping because it's, you know, it's hard not to, um, when you're, when you're working in this field, right.
Where you're kind of helping people with, uh, the very human act of, of moving their body and meeting themselves through movement, it's hard not to let your own. Evolution, um, kind of like spill into that, um, and, and, you know, part of what I was seeing too, was that I would see clients either in a group or one on one for movement.
And there'd be all this other stuff that would come up to do with completely non, you know, non body based things. Um, That I was like, Oh, there's some trauma here, or there's some, some stuff here that movement alone isn't going to necessarily solve, but is also a doorway to solving a piece of it. And so that was where that kind of came together for, from a, from a teaching point of view of kind of bringing the kind of more mental health related elements together with the movement.
Um, And it all just made sense in the context of where I'd been, I guess, and what I was seeing in the people that I was working with. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So cool how everything came together for you. Did you yourself then go through counselling along your journey? Yeah. I've had various counsellors over the years.
Um, I remember seeing my first psychologist actually at probably 18 years old, um, because I had a panic attack in a university exam, uh, and wasn't doing too good. Um, so I had a bit of history too of, you know, of mental health challenges, um, had always had a lot of anxiety. So I hadn't, I wasn't Unfamiliar with that support, that way of being supported.
Um, it took me a really long time to find someone that I actually wanted to work with and enjoyed working with. So, um, I've worked with lots of people over the years, but probably only a couple or a handful that I would say really, um, kind of met me where I, where I was. Um, And I still to this day have counseling regularly.
I think it's, uh, as a counselor, it's important that I do that. Um, but it's important for my own sense of self understanding as well, because, you know, there's always things we just don't know about ourselves yet or that we haven't quite explored. Um, so I love having a sounding board to be able to say, Hey, this is what's going on.
How can you help me explore it? Um, so yeah, yeah. I find that really valuable. That's amazing. Yeah. So when did you add counseling? That's just a recent addition to your work. Is that right? Yeah, it is pretty recent. So it was early this year. I think I finished, I finished up my training in like maybe December or January and then yeah, after that, um, my background.
When I was at university, though, was in behavioral science, so it was a psychology course. Um, so I'd kind of been weaving, I guess, psychological concepts through my work for a really long time. Um, but this was more to be able to like, yeah, really properly work with people with, you know, counseling based tools.
Um, so yeah, I'm loving, loving the addition of that. It's, it's proving to be a very, uh, wonderful combination. Thank you. Amazing. So do people come for you just for counseling and then just for movement, or do you kind of combine them? How does that look for your practice now? Yeah, it's it's that's an evolution.
I think that will continue to happen over time. But at the moment I see people for both. I see people for straight up counseling. Um, that will always incorporate some level of body awareness though. So I would say that my. Style of counseling is very somatic based. Um, sometimes we do movement too. So using movement as a tool to understand ourselves, um, and to help with pain and, and, um, tension as well.
So for some of my clients, it's much more talk based for some, it's very much a split between the two. Um, and then for others, it will be much more heavily movement based. Um, and then I work with. Okay. Thanks. People still in groups with movement. Um, but even there, I always incorporate kindness and compassion as kind of the foundation for what we're doing.
Um, so very much trying to, to weave both of those things together with everybody that I work with. Cause I don't think that we can actually separate them. I don't think that we can say, well, here's the mental stuff. Here's the mind based stuff and the brain based stuff. And here's the body stuff. Yeah. I just don't think it works like that.
Every time we work with the body, we are working with our mind and our brain, um, and vice versa. So, um, I guess now I'm just doing that with more, I don't know, like intention. Yeah. Um, more specificity, but I think we're all doing that all the time because how do you not, you know, Yes, yeah, especially, I actually just interviewed, um, Daniela Spear, who is a mutual friend of ours, too, and, uh, yeah, you know, the more we learn about pain science, the more we don't know, right, there's just, it's so complex, and yes, there's so many variables and factors involved, but 100%, we can't separate psychological from the physical experience, right, so I think that, yeah.
The fact that you're marrying the two is so, so beautiful. I think that's, again, so needed. And, you know, as a physical therapist, I, you know, talk about mindset and a lot of things like this too. And I encourage my clients to speak to therapists because that is outside of my scope. So yeah, again, the fact that you're doing both, that's so amazing.
So yeah, I would love to, for you to kind of touch on if there's people listening, I'm sure there's other moms listening that are relating to your story, you know, caught in that self or that people pleasing, um, maybe not so kind to themselves. What I know you could probably talk about this forever, but what would be sort of like your biggest take home advice?
For those people to start to change that inner narrative, start to, yeah, just be more kind, show themselves more self kindness. Yeah. Um, that is a big question. I think. Like anything, the first step always is acknowledging what's going on, um, because that can be really hard as mums to be like, well, part of the reason that I behave the way that I behave is because I'm trying to be perfect, or I'm trying to make sure that everybody likes me, um, which is ultimately what people pleasing is, right?
Trying to make sure that we're kind of like controlling the people around us by serving them and attending to their needs at the expense of ours. Um, so I think that acknowledging what we're noticing about the way that we're being is really important because once we acknowledge something, it's kind of, it loses a little bit of its heat.
Um, and if we can acknowledge it, With compassion, that's where the magic is. So it's not like, Oh, well, here's another thing I'm getting wrong. I'm, you know, now I'm, my perfectionism isn't even good. You know, that's a really easy place to get in. To our heads and be like, Oh, well, here's just another way that I'm, I'm messing up.
Um, but to actually be able to say, Oh, I see, I see that it's really important to my identity right now that, um. I appear to have it all together, um, but on the inside I'm like, I feel like I'm falling apart. I feel like I'm really suffering. I feel exhausted. And like literally just having that conversation with yourself and being like, okay, and I see you and I see you suffering and, you know, one hand over the heart, one hand over your belly.
And just like, And I, and I meet you with compassion, you know, I'm meeting myself with compassion, with kindness, getting curious about what it is that I might need. And I think that can feel very hard and very uncomfortable. Sometimes the first few times that you meet yourself with compassion, it. Can feel a little bit like, Oh, maybe I'm not meant to do that.
You know, this is reserved for other people, but we know what it feels like to give that to someone else. We know that feeling, we know that feeling of like, you are worthy of my love, regardless of, of, you know, what you've done, who you've been, um. What's going on. We give that to our children. We give that to strangers.
We give that to animals all the time. Um, I've just spotted a little ladybird on my desk. That's random. Um, and it's so small. I'm just going to let it run across. Um, so it can feel very awkward. And I think that it's important to recognize that you're not doing it wrong. If you're like, this feels hard. It just sometimes does.
But just practicing that little bit by little bit, you know, popping your hand on your heart and being like, you know, sometimes love feels too big a word for people to use. Um, and so that's where it's like, yeah, I want to be kind to you. Um, but it could be, you know, I love you. Could be anything, anything that feels true enough.
Um. Because sometimes it is, it's just the desire to be kind. That was what it was for me. It was like, I don't know how to like myself, let alone love myself. But I do have a desire for that. I do have a desire to learn how to do that. I have a desire to be kind to myself. And so it can be those words too, right?
Like I deeply want to learn how to be kind. To you, to me, you know, however you want to phrase it and doing that in the midst of those moments where it's like, you can kind of feel yourself beating yourself up and yes, absolutely reach out for professional support as well, particularly if you are in that phase, like that, that.
And, and sometimes I think we think we have to be really bad to, to reach out for support and I definitely waited too long. I was, I was a real mess by the time that I did. Um, but you can be pretty like, you know, quote unquote, okay. And still reach out for support. You don't have to be deeply suffering to, to ask for support and help and to want to understand yourself better.
Um, And then, and then I think the second part of that is like meeting yourself with the kindness and compassion. And then when you check in and you kind of like ask yourself, what might I need? Giving yourself once like some small piece of that. So if, you know, sometimes you, you check in and you're like, I knew I really need, some rest.
I really need to go and lie down. And that might feel completely unavailable. You might be like, well, all the children are running around screaming. Um, I've got this deadline at work, dinner needs to be cooked, whatever, but can you. Give yourself some small piece of what you need to prove to yourself that you are worthy of that, that you can tune into what you need.
And so it might just literally be sitting down for 30 seconds, closing your eyes and breathing. But recognizing when you do that, that you're not just ticking self care off a list you are. Being in response to what you notice about how you are and offering it to yourself through that lens of kindness and compassion and that desire to, to form and to foster a relationship with yourself that is more loving.
And sometimes when I work through this with people, there's this sense of like, is that it? You know, could you give me the magic? Is there a wand? Could we, is there anything that could just make that to happen? Like, you know, In a flash. And the truth is that like, I don't think there is, if there is, I haven't come across it yet.
It's those little moments. It's those little decisions it's doing it. And, and treating it like an experiment. What happens when I do make myself with compassion? How does that change things? What happens when I do take that 30 seconds to pause and breathe? How does that change things? And in those little moments, we prove to ourselves that we're worthy of that time and that love and that attention and that compassion, and then it tends to just build on itself because it feels good, you know?
Um, yeah, so that would be my. That would be where I would stop. I feel like I just had a counseling session. Thank you.
Yeah. It's just like that, that awareness piece and giving yourself permission, which we don't need the permission, but just giving that permission to listen and to make those small little changes throughout the day that. We might think our silly, you know, I talk about exercise and I talk about how five minutes counts.
Right. And I have to convince people that that's true and their science to prove that that's true. However, it's like you said, it's those promises to ourselves and showing up for ourselves. And yeah, we, you know, we make promises to other people and show up for those people. Why don't we do that for ourselves?
Right? Yeah. So I think that is so beautiful. Just those little pockets of time doesn't have to be, you know, like a half hour meditation session because we as busy moms, we might not have the time for that. No. Yeah. Two minutes, you know, check in, do some deep breathing and that might be all you need. Yeah.
And I, and I think that it's truly amazing how much of a difference those things can make. Um, Like you said, we're kind of wired or taught, I don't know, maybe a bit of both to think that it's not enough, but it's like, just try, because I really believe that if you try, you'll see that it is. And, you know, you could also say, and it will lead into more, but even if it doesn't, that's okay.
Um, I'm a big believer that. You know, some, for some of us, that 30 second, two minute pause might just be the perfect fit. Um, so yeah, let yourself play an experiment and be like, does this meet my needs? And you might be like, you know what, 30 seconds doesn't meet my needs at all. This doesn't feel like enough.
And so then you use that information to then be like, okay, well, I'll try five minutes. How does that feel? Um. But when we can take it away from being just something that is on a list that we tick off, oh, I did myself care, um, to actually being responsive to what you notice in yourself, game changer. Yeah, I love that.
So let's go back to the joy piece. What are you doing for joy? Erica, I'd love for you to share. Yes. So I do a couple of big things for joy, but I also do a lot of just like everyday joy seeking. So I'm that person that's going to be like, Oh my goodness, the moon, you know, or pointing out the flowers as, as we're out and about, or just something that delights me.
I will. I will always point it out. I will always give myself a second to like, Ooh, like feel that, that moment of like, Oh, I love that so much. Um, so I'm a bit childlike in that regard. Um, and that's a big part of my joy practice, but I also roller skate. Um, so I took up roller skating in February this year.
Um. And I started a basketball team late last year. So I play mom's basketball, which is mostly joyful, but sometimes because you're dealing with other people, um, on a team can sometimes be less joyful if, if, um, if they're not in a great head space. Um, and I. Watch basketball, which has become a huge part of my joy that was very unexpected.
I went from being like a, I don't like sports kind of person to being deeply obsessed with basketball to the point that there's often a game on now at my house. Um, and I love it. So that's, that's, that's my joy at the moment. And, um, Yeah, there's, you know, I love reading and I love doing all those things, but they're probably the big, they're the big ones at the moment.
Yeah. And did you find there was a time of your life again, maybe early postpartum, a lot of us don't have the time or the headspace to find joy, but are you intentionally doing that these days? Do you find? Very much so. Yeah. I, I did do some joy seeking when I was, um, kind of in that process of, of emerging from, from my sort of harder days.
Um, and I did a lot of drawing and a lot of painting and that was really wonderful, but then I turned it into a business and it lost a lot of its shine. Um, so it, but it was an interesting one because it, it reminded me of how much my joy revolved around being productive. Um, and so this has probably been the first time in recent memory that I can think of joy that I have like watching buzz balls, not productive, um, going to roller skating is not productive.
In fact, it takes a good few hours out of my day, um, to go and do it. Uh, You know, nobody, nobody gets anything from me doing those things other than probably my, you know, my, my delight and happiness. But, um, I very much used to think that if I was going to be experiencing joy, there better be benefit for somebody else, um, or, you know, productivity.
I better make it, you know, I don't want it to look too much. Like it's just for me. I want it to look like it's for somebody else. Um, and so, yeah, going after joy just for, for your own pleasure is. So counter to what a lot of us believe, you know, we might even, yeah, like there's that, that's a whole other topic probably.
But, um, yeah, and it makes me laugh because, and I think you've heard me say this before, like the basketball thing just makes me laugh so much because it's so far from who I thought I was. Um, and it is, it's just so Unproductive and, and, you know, like almost sort of like, well, who cares, but it brings me so much joy.
And so I, um, really delight in that. And, um, yeah, so I encourage anyone listening if you're like, Oh, there's nothing, you know, because this is a conversation Rhonda and I had as well, a while ago, we kind of became a joy accountability buddies for a little while there, didn't we have like, well, I'm going to sign up for this.
You go sign up for the, the, uh, Olli lifting and, um. Like it's never too late. I think that's one thing I thought was, you know, I'm 40 now and I was like, well, it's probably too late for me to find my joy. No, that's terrible. You are able to, you know, reinvent, like not even reinvent, but like discover new parts of yourself.
That's, that's fun. I think that's a really fun thing to do is, you know, post kids and, um, as we get older to be like, Oh, who am I now? You know, what do I love and letting it evolve? Cause it's kind of cool. Cool. It is really cool. And yeah, I feel like there is. I do want to acknowledge again, going back to both of our postpartum experience, I feel like, you know, looking back at that time, if someone would say like, Oh, you just need to find joy.
I would have been like, um, that's offensive because I have no time. I'm tired. I like that is the last thing on my radar. Right. So I think you and I are in my kids now are four and six. So Transcribed by https: otter. ai There is an evolution, right? Yeah, there's a different stage. There's a different time.
However, there can always still be little, like we talked about earlier, little pockets of time or find joy and, you know, buy yourself a chocolate bar. Like, you know, there's still little things you can do even in the thick of that, you know, heavy parenting time. That reminds you that you are a worthy human, right?
I think yes, that's what society does so clearly to it's like, you know, moms are superheroes. And that time is like, suck it up and get through it. Right. And it's like, what a horrible way to live, right? You just suck it up and get through it. You know, they're Still, yeah, I think our society needs to do such a better job of those early phases.
Um, do you talk to people in that like early thick of parenting now? Not often. Admittedly, um, my clientele tend to be probably a little further along. Yeah. Yeah, but you know, I would say With what you were just saying, you know, like, yes, absolutely. There are phases of life where probably, you know, getting out for, for some of these joy filled activities, it's just too hard.
And I always do encourage anyone I work with, whether they're, you know, parents of young children or not parents at all, um, to not just focus on the big. Joys, because it's easy to be like, well, I find my joy by driving to a waterfall and standing there listening to the sounds and it's like, okay, but you're definitely not going to probably be able to do that very often, you know, especially if you don't live near a waterfall.
Um, and so always really encouraging, like, where do you find the, the, the small moments of joy? So for me, like my morning coffee is deeply joy filled. Um, so don't. Don't walk around with your coffee, picking up toys off the floor, sit down and really enjoy it. You know, I remember mums used to say to me all the time, I'll make, I never drink a coffee hot.
And I'm like, then sit down and drink the bloody coffee, stop leaving it for later. You know, um, and. But that's again, part of it's like, Oh, but there's things to do. Yes. There's never a shortage of things to do. Never. Um, but you can sit down for two minutes and drink your coffee. You can sit down for two minutes and, you know, savor that chocolate bar.
Um, but we have all these, you know, Oh, but that's a guilty pleasure. We have, you know, all this language around stuff like that, that everything has to inspire guilt. Ugh. Like just enjoy it. Right. But it's We get to that point of being able to say, yes, I do just enjoy it, or I do just sit and do it by doing it and realizing that it makes us feel a certain way beyond the guilt.
So we have to do these things to be able to kind of build the evidence up that we can, uh, which is, and there's a period of discomfort, right? Because we don't think that we're allowed to do it. So, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, Laura talked about that too, with her morning coffee and part of that comes with setting boundaries too, right?
And. Recognizing that our self care involves telling others that this is my time. You know, and then, you know, a former version of herself might have been like, how dare we, you know, tell our kids like, so leave me alone, but it's like, no, leave me alone. Yeah, it's my time. I need to enjoy my coffee. I will help you when I'm done.
I talked about that with working out to where. You know, my, my message is, yeah, we want our kids involved. We want them to see us working out, but also working out should be for you. It's because it makes me feel good. And so sometimes my message to my kids is like, this is mommy's workout time. You know, I can help you with that snack in five minutes.
You can wait a little bit. Right. And yeah, and some people just can't get to that point. Right. Where it's like, no, I need to address that issue right there then and there. But it's like, no, I need to honor what I'm doing in this moment. That can happen after I'm done. And it's that discomfort, right? Like that, that feeling of, Oh, but I just can't it's because it's that voice in your head telling you that you're a bad person if you don't.
Um, and so there is, you know, like I said, that, that uncomfortable period where you have to do things that don't feel, and, you know, I say, have to, you don't have to do anything, but if you want to kind of move into that place of feeling like you're. Yeah. Taking care of your needs a little bit more. There is that need then to be like, Oh, okay, I'm finding this very uncomfortable to set boundaries with my kids.
It's making me feel like a bad mom, but at the same time, I really want what's on the other side of this, which is more time for myself. Yet we have to kind of navigate that messy period of being uncomfortable and letting them be uncomfortable. Uh, but when we're trying to avoid discomfort, we will just.
We will just be like, Oh, no, I'll just do that for the kids. It's easier because it is often easier. Yeah. It is often easier to just stick with the way that things are. Um, and so that's why I think support can be so helpful because then you're not kind of relying on just sheer will, you know, you've got some tools, you've got some, um, backup and some strategy around it because it's not easy and it, and we'd be doing people a disservice if we were like, yeah, it's just, it's just easy, you know, because it's not, it's, it can sometimes feel very hard.
Yep. Yeah, totally. So if people are listening today, Erica, and yeah, they're thinking, okay, I need more self kindness in my life. I need, I need some help. How can clients reach out to you? How can they work with you? Yeah. So easiest place to find me is on Instagram. Um, I'm over there at Erica web underscore self kite.
Um, my website is just Erica webb. com. au. And that's Erica with a C, uh, web with two Bs. Um, I know you'll probably pop links somewhere as well. Uh, but yeah, just reach out all the information about how to work with me is on my website. But I'm also very much open to, you know, people popping into my DMs over on Instagram and just, you know, having a, having a chat to see if, um, things are a good fit or, um, to point them in the direction of resources that I have.
I've got, um, a podcast with like 200 and something episodes too. So there's lots there that I can, uh, send onto people as well, just to dip a toe in. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing today, Erica. Again, what you do with your clients is so needed. And I think a lot of people will really resonate with this message today.
Thank you, Rhonda. It's been such a joy. Thanks for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you liked what you heard, we would love if you could share this with a friend, leave us a review or subscribe to anywhere that you listen to your podcasts. Thanks for being here.
